If this made any sense at all, it would have been built already, because private interests would have come running with buckets of money. That hasn't happened. How many empty schools do we have in this town with gymnasiums and stages? If a theatre of this magnitude were feasible, then the playhouse would be hugely successful, but it's not. Everyone keeps whining about their taxes, Council keeps chanting about financial sustainability, but we want to pursue more debt and more civic facilities to run and maintain with union labour? Give your heads a shake and grow up.

"When a handful of special interests can vote themselves a piece of the public purse, a democracy ceases to be."

So right sine! If we could just get rid of those damn unions we could have a PAC.

Sine & Denaljo, what does the union have to do with it? Union workers make a fair wage and spend most of their pay cheques here in the community.
If your son or daughter, wife, brother, father etc had a good paying union job at the new PAC I don't suppose you would be complaining, right?

Union labour is fine, I didn't mean to suggest that it isn't. What isn't fine though is to spend this type of capital on niceties when we can't even manage the infrastructure we have and are already over a $100 million in debt and the RCMP building isn't even built yet and taxes just keep going up and up and up. Where does it stop?

I was the only candidate who said no to the PAC. I sure hope this tax money sucking project doesn't become another dead horse alongside downtown redevelopment with which to flog for many years to come.

Sine - "If this made any sense at all, it would have been built already, because private interests would have come running with buckets of money."

So apparently CN Centre, Civic Centre, Aquatic Centre, Four Seasons, Citizen Field, Kin Centres, softball diamonds, etc. etc. did NOT make sense and should NOT have been built because no private interests came running with buckets of money?

Interestingly, private interests with buckets of money don't rush in to pay for road rehabilitation, either, so apparently filling potholes and repaving makes no sense.

Greece is doing OK because of all their "private interests", eh?

Well said Sine Nomine except the union part. I totally support unions. I do not support the PAC if it is built & maintained with tax dollars. You are correct, PG is already in debt enough. We don't need more civic facilities just to have them sit empty or only used by the very select rich.

Thank you, mythoughts.

The PAC should go to a referendum... I doubt it would pass if it did. I think the PAC people know that though..

Fancy frills should never be paid for with borrowed money. If we had lots of cash in the bank, then by all means, build a new PAC. Until then,shelve it and make do.

Dump more taxpayer money into tuning up the P3 proposal. If this is all the people at city hall have to do maybe they are not needed. Typical city administrators method of getting a project through. Beat the taxpayer to death with it and then use the AAP. The city already dumps piles of money into the sports fascility at UNBC and now the taxpayer will get tagged with another 1/2 million a year in maintenance costs for a PAC. Isn't it enough to be wasting 15 million on a stack gas economiser at Lakeland mills to supplement civic building heating? Why do we need these pet projects? Concentrate on the core services and forget the pie in the sky photo op projects.

Let's determine how much "private interest" there is in a new PAC! How about a membership drive for the Performing Arts Centre - how many people will pay for a twenty bucks *founding member subscription* and thereby indicate and validate their present and future support for such a facility, including their promise to fill the big new expensive facility for most of the events, so that it does not become another white elephant which is sitting empty most of the time, expensive to maintain, heat and cool?

How about a goal of 10,000 or more memberships sold?

Too afraid to give it a shot?

In the words of Kevin O'Leary: Stop the whining, show me the money and the private interest!

Could this be our "catalyst" project to attract new residents to Prince George?

Prince George is slowly getting a new identity - maybe this will help?

The City needs to find a way to generate money/tax base directly or indirectly with new projects.

Hopefully we will start to see a return on these taxpayer funded dreams.

bohemian would the PAC get the usage for 50 million that the facilities you listed get.

Have a membership drive to see how many are interested, I agree with PG on this one.

To raise money for the (maybe) PAC, maybe the principals could arrange a "Punch & Judy" show at the Farmers Market for the next few years. Don't forget the fedora on the ground in front of the stage.

It's starting to get really old with all the complaints about taxes going up, and blaming the new RCMP building or a proposed PAC centre. Taxes going up has more to do with the drop in population in PG.

1996 - Pop. 75,150
2001 - Pop. 72,406
2006 - Pop. 70,981

See a pattern yet? The cost of everything has increased in a huge fashion over the past 15 years, but there's fewer people paying into the tax base.

Is a PAC a "catalyst" to attract new residents? That's hard to say. I made the foolish assumption that UNBC would be that catalyst years ago, but the population in PG has been going down ever since.

"Do you know why small towns stay small? Because nobody wants to live there." - Bill Maher

vocer...Dan Roger's campaigned in the last election that he would put the PAC up for a referendum which has never happened. That's the only reason I voted for him. He's not getting my vote this time and neither is any other politician who supports the PAC using tax dollars. I ask everyone one of them when they come to me asking for their vote. So far Albert Koehler is the only one who said he will not support a PAC using tax dollars. I hope he stays true to his word. I was surprised that Frank Everett does support the PAC with tax dollars so he too has lost my vote.

"fewer people paying into the tax base?" Just go to the City of PGs website and find out how many tax exempt entities there are here. It might surprise ya.

"Do you know why small towns stay small? Because nobody wants to live there." - Bill Maher ........

THAT is why Brasilia, created from nothing other than forest in 1956 grew to be a metropolis of close to 4 million people.

The government needs to do some planning. In our case, the govenment needs to figure out whether they want this province to be the lower mainland and the hinterland or, like Alberta, spread out from the southern tip to the centre and then the north.

The Leduc oil fields certainly helped Edmonton, but it was the capital of the province long before that. It is nowhere near a port. It is nowhere near the US western population center. It is nowhere near mountains. It is nowhere near a multitude of lakes. The climate is colder than PG. The winds are windier than PG.

I think that if PG was a city of say 500,000, with the ammenities that such a city would create both inside the city and its surrounding countryside, there would be many reasons why people would prefer to live here than any of the prairie cities.

We need to have a serious "conversation" with the people we send to Victoria from here to ask them what their "vision" for this city is, irrespective of an on again off again so called natural resources economy.

Whatever planning is done on a provincial scale, we really do not know about. It is mostly reactive when it comes to land use planning, not proactive. The Province can shake the City's hand on that.

BTW, has anyone found any use for the Fraser Basin Council? There is a useless government funded body that does squat.

"how many tax exempt entities there are here"

Most of them, I believe, are government and they pay a grant in lieu of tax.

Where do you suppose governments get their money to pay those grants? Ottawa has their own printing press. We don't.

Pylot you are correct about the population decrease.
If not for UNBC and the fact they are probably one of the largest employers in PG the population numbers would be even worse.

Major employers who have closed the doors in PG.
Rustads gone.
NCP gone.
Clear Lake sawmills gone.
Winton Global (The Pas) gone.

Just those four alone probably come close to a 1000 good paying jobs that have disappeared. Add in the spin off effect and it can easily be seen why the population has decreased.

It just does not make economic sense to fund money loosing projects with taxpayer money in order to create employment. If a project is worthwhile and a return on investment can be had private industry will step up to the plate.

The rejection by the Federal government doesn't supprise me at all. the Pac society are holding their hand out for any tax dollars it being, Federal, Provincial, Municipal, it comes down to one thing tax payers money.

Not once have I read somewhere that the Pac Society has raised any money on their own. You know it is called fund raising. If you want this that badly, how much money have you raised on your own? How come this in not made public. Derek Bates said, but other options may exist, so we will try again. City adminstrators doing the work for the Pac once again.

I did some research, came across (Google) Bella Rose Arts Centre Society, Halifax, population 80,000 2005. They wanted an arts centre, so they with the Halifax Regional School board operate under a shared-space concept. They built a 600 seat theatre, it looks a lot like Vanier Hall. they received grants, fundraising etc.

Gus, a while back you named a Arts Centre, I can't remember where it was, but it was a good article, where the Arts raised over 9 million on their own for their new space. So what is wrong with Prince George doing some fundraising on their own.

If you want that badly, do something.

Resident..Sure hope Lakeland Mills doesn't follow suit with the others or else PG will be in the hot water producing business. Would be interesting.

harbinger wrote: "Where do you suppose governments get their money to pay those grants"

The province from provincial taxpayers and the feds from federal tax payers. In other words,

1. we do not pay taxes for city buildings. 2. we pay taxes for our buildings - 100%
3. we pay taxes on provincial buildings - say 1.7% on the dollar
4. we pay taxes on federal buildings - say 0.2% on the dollar

Let us get this straight once and for all.

We, the people of this country, whether we are employer or employees, owners or "slaves" provide ALL money in this country by various means, including selling prodcuts and services "overseas" and taking in toruist dollars for products and services we provide within Canada.

Build a provincial office building here for $10 million, they pay a grant in lieu of taxes and we get a $10million dollar building that we pay less than $200,000 for and pay less than 2% of the ongoing grants for. It gets even better if the feds build another building here.

So what is your point, harbinger? We all know that. Why don't you?

Newly retired:"Not once have I read somewhere that the Pac Society has raised any money on their own. You know it is called fund raising. If you want this that badly, how much money have you raised on your own?"

Good question! Usually all levels of government are really impressed if the movers and shakers who so badly want this new PAC would start moving and shaking by showing some serious seed money via fund raising efforts!

So, why has this not been happening?

(Previous fund raising suggestions resulted in some scornful and haughty letters to the local paper).

Newly retired....

There are a few principles of developing ANY public project whether it is a PAC, Ice Rink, Ball Park, Museum, Football Stadium, Library, Public Market, etc.

1. recognize that by tradition, there are some projects which are in the public realm, some in the private realm and some are crossovers.

2. every single one of such projects that I have named above is for "special interest groups" in any community. That, in fact, is how one can look at a community. A community is many special interest groups coming together because they all have special needs and special skills and live together in supposed harmony for the benefit of all. Of course the harmony part is sometimes difficult to see on Opinion 250 :-)

3. The other truth about the above partial list is that not a single one is an actual need. They are all wants. However, when put to the test, some of us will say "no way, I could not live without a ball park", and others will pick a different type of facility to put into that category.

4. When working towards getting a new facility built, one has to have more than just an idea in one's head. One has to plan to come up with what the building might look like, where it might go, what successes others have had with it, how much it will cost to build, how much will it cost to operate, how it might be funded for both construction and operation, what are the risks, when might it actually get built, what private or public groups might benefit enough from it to become a "partner" in a development such as a hotel next to a stadium or an airport, etc. etc.

5. The more complex such plans are, the more dynamic the community is, the more the plans for such a development might change as they are developed. What is initially thought to be the way it will go, will change more the longer the process takes. Such projects, for instance, are frequently built in other locations than was initially planned.

So, if you read the information provided by the city, including the letter from the feds, the rejection was not because the City was holding out its hand but because the information provided was insufficient for them to decide in favour of this moving to the next stage.

You have to keep in mind that it was actually the feds who were reaching out for the hands of communities across the country to ask what do you want and how can we help.

They want to provide another billion plus dollars to pump into the national economy at this time to help communities build up their infrastructure, and projects such as cultural facilities, especially in "brownfield" locations fit their criteria.

Finally, raising money for a project which is still in the early stages of development is very difficult. Raising money for such arts projects is especially difficult in Canada as opposed to the USA for example. Money can be raised if we have a project that is funded, as all such projects are in Canada by some combination of local, provincial and federal grants. Frequently it is about a quarter each and the final quarter through private fundraising. The Feds, the Province and the City know that. I am sure there is no one in this community who has a say in making this project a reality that would ever support this City coming up with all the dollars required to build it.

Unless this community has someone like the Baders in Kingston who recently jump started a 560-seat concert hall project with a $22 million gift, we will not see any private fundraising to that level here.

The 80,000 sf project at Queens is funded by a $6 million city contribution and $30 million split half way from the province and feds. Note that the concert hall is larger and more expensive than what we are looking at. The commissioned the Architect for the Norwegian Opera House, which is also on the waterfront, to design the building. No slouch that little university town of Kingston with less of an average income than PG, eh?.

Our federal tax dollars for such projects have been finding lots of use for Ontario, small city PACS over the last decade. I think we should make sure some of that money from our pockets comes west. ;-)

http://www.queensu.ca/badercentre/specifications

Oh, I forgot, not all groups actually plan before they ask for donations from private or public bodies. Some simply go and do an e-mail the councillors campaign ... LOL

And there are some councillor who actually fall for that kind of approach ;-)

When the new Persephone Theatre in Saskatoon opened in 2008 it was debt free. The board had raised over 11 million dollars! Saskatoon spending 11 million for an arts centre for a population of 240,000. PG will show them up with thier 40 million dollar building paid for by all taxpayers.

The PAC in Prince George is much like the community energy system. No one asked for it, no one wants it, however the City will go ahead a borrow money and build it.

These ideas like the PAC are actually being put forward by the City and IPG, with very little input from the so called Performing Arts Society.

Its the old what came first the **chicken** or the **egg**. I suggest if you really looked into it you would see that the whole process is being pushed by IPG and the City.

It sure as hell is not being pushed by the taxpayers of Prince George. A couple of hundred members of a PAC are not a sufficient number to build any project.

I for one have not really listened to much of this debacle, and would like to know where this PAC is proposed to be located? Anyone?

verballabel.

The location has apparently not been revealed as yet. However it would seem that it would be located across from City Hall on the property that the City purchased a number of years ago from Norgate Auto Body. If it is located there then that supports my contention that the City and IPG are the big pushes behind this project.

Its much like the City purchasing the property on 4th and Victoria in 2006 to ostensibly keep it from being priced to high for development, and then (WALLA) in 2010 they used it for the new Police Station. I would suggest that it was for the Police Station from the get go, however because they did not have all their financing in place in 2006 they handed us a BS story.

Same thing for the PAC. The City, IPG, and to some extent the PAC Society have been working on this project for a few years, and you can bet you bottom dollar that they intend to build this building, regardless of what the taxpayers think.

Palopu - "No one asked for it, no one wants it..."

Apparently you haven't been paying attention at all since 1988's narrowly defeated referendum on Discovery Place.

red2b wrote: "When the new Persephone Theatre in Saskatoon opened in 2008 it was debt free."

Anyone who knows the arts scene in Canada realizes right away when someone says something like that they are getting something wrong or they have a different perception of what is debt free.

Any PAC that gets funded by whoever – governments, private donors, partners, etc – and do not take out a loan are debt free. I do not think there are many centres which are not debt free.

For your information, the Persophone Theatre received the following from governments in 2010 according to their report to Revenue Canada

1. Feds = $228,000(2010) $204,500(2009)
2. Province = $206,800(2010) $301,800(2009)
3. Municipal/regional = $60,000(2010) $73,993(2009)

Total = $494,800 (17.5% of income)
Revenue from sales (tickets, rentals, etc) = $1,521,408 (53.8% of income)

Total income = $2,826,204(2010) $2,740,070(2009)

Total expenses = $2,959,615(2010) $2,796,976(2009)

Operating loss = $133,411 (4.5%) (2010) $56,906(2009)

Come on, fabricate some more stories that imply that there are theatres in Canada that are not funded by taxpayers .... this is fun ... ;-)

verballabel wrote: "I for one have not really listened to much of this debacle, and would like to know where this PAC is proposed to be located? Anyone?"

The best answer is downtown.

As allowed for under the Community Charter, land transaction decisions are typically held in closed session of Council.

I know one thing for sure, until the City announces a site, the site can change over time because the real estate environment is changing and that is true for any city.

Even when Cities have announced sites, such as Penticton did, they may change over time.

So, while I suspect that a downtown location will not change to a suburban location, the exact location downtown will depend on a several factors in play at the time a decision has to be made. That is not unusual for any project that is still in the planning stage.

Gus sure knows a lot.

Hey Harbinger .... you are runnng for Council, you should know more than me. ;-)

As far as land tansactions go, harbinger, I worked for a turnkey developer (one of those rare one with real money .. LOL) in Toronto. We did virtually everything in house from assembbling land to designing the buildings, manufacturing the precast concrete, acting as general contractors, operating the buildings for about 5 years and then putting them on the market when they had a proven record.

I did the feasibility studies. I did about 10 for everyone that we ended up buying. Even then, we did not build on every one.

These were 10 to 15 storey apartment buildings, some associated with town houses as well as local retail plazas.

Since when did having something between the ears become a requirement for running for council?


.....or mayor or mla........ Etc.......Etc......

Bread and circuses. Gotta keep them taxpayers amused AND distracted. Seems to me nothing has changed since Roman times.

"Come on, fabricate some more stories that imply that there are theatres in Canada that are not funded by taxpayers .... this is fun ... ;-)"

Gus- are you saying I fabricated this? Where did I say there were theatres in Canada not funded by taxpayers? I never implied that there is not/was not any funding by taxpayers. I thought it was interesting that they raised over $11,000,000.00 locally.
How much has been raised here towards a new PAC? Minimal at best.

red2b. Minimal at best, covers it quite well.

Why go to all the trouble to collect money for a project if you can **glean** it from different levels of Government??, and then pretend because it is from different levels of Government it is not tax dollars.

Then to ensure they get their way they can argue if we dont take the money from the Feds, the people of Northern Moose Nova Scotia, or Quebec will get it. We must get our share, even if it means wasting the money.

Why is it that some people in PG are so focused on maintaining the 1970's mill town persona that it has? It was 40 years ago now folks, it's okay to let and go and move into modern times.

And I don't say that lightly. That attitude rears its head constantly, whether it is talk about a PAC, trail networks, developing more parkland, trying to address air quality issues, developing a downtown core, trying to work on social issues, attracting new economic drivers into town (education and health care), encouraging smart development, etc.

When exactly will people in PG look around at what other cities are doing to grow and think "hey maybe we should look at doing THOSE things as opposed to doing what we've always done . . ."

"When exactly will people in PG look around at what other cities are doing to grow and think "hey maybe we should look at doing THOSE things as opposed to doing what we've always done . . ." "

What other town or city in Canada with a population of 75 to 80 thousand has spent over 40 million on a PAC or similar?

red2b - Nanaimo recently with the Port Theatre - beautiful addition and catalyst to their downtown. There are numerous others - I'm sure gus could give you a number of links, but I suspect yours was a rhetorical question you'd rather not have answered with facts.

There would be a lot less resistance to projects such as the PAC if the city did a better job of looking after what should be their #1 priority- basic services such as roads, snow removal, infrastructure, etc. Ospika was voted the worse road in the province, the city paved half and then was shamed into paving the other side( found 315k under the couch cushions)

A few years ago it was agreed to increase taxes so the city could clean driveways during snow removal and now we have a mayoral candidate talking about not clearing residential streets at all.

Sure it would be nice to have a vibrant downtown area, but not if I have to drive a goat trail to get there. The city's pockets are not deep enough to go it alone and under current conditions private money will not be flowing any time soon.

"What other town or city in Canada with a population of 75 to 80 thousand has spent over 40 million on a PAC or similar?"

Two things:

1) To the best of my knowledge, the City of PG has not proposed to spend 40 million dollars on a PAC. That's the standard falsehood that the opponents throw out there. Everything I have read on the issue has indicated that IF it were to be built, it would have to be a cost sharing type approach with the City only being committed to a portion of the total cost (that portion being much less than 40 million). Unfortunately, people are so closed minded about the issue that they won't even allow any reasonable discussion to occur so that the real facts and figures can be determined and disclosed.

2) Did you read the rest of my post? It isn't just about the PAC . . .

"Sure it would be nice to have a vibrant downtown area, but not if I have to drive a goat trail to get there"

If I had a choice of a vibrant downtown and a goat trail to get there or a lifeless downtown and perfect roads, I would take the former in a heartbeat.

Sadly, PG can't seem to do either of those and they have a lifeless downtown serviced by goat trails, LOL. Is it any wonder that the population is shrinking?

"If I had a choice of a vibrant downtown and a goat trail to get there or a lifeless downtown and perfect roads, I would take the former in a heartbeat. "


You might not make it to the goat trail if you get stuck on your street trying to make it to the plowed arterial road or can't get out of your driveway because the watermain broke....again.

We have a PAC it's called CN Centre haha!!

I was at CN Centre the other day and the attendance was in the 1200 range. For being a hockey town, we sure have a hard time supporting this type of entertainment. And that was a weekend game which is supposed to be busier.......yeah right!!

I was looking down Central Street and Ospika before the game and it was like a ghost town. 75,000 live here and I'm wondering where they all are? I think having entertainment choices are nice, but I wonder if the world is changing where we are all in a hurry to get home turn on the flat screen or sit on our computers typing on this website instead of heading out to public venues......

The proposed cost of the PAC in Prince George is $42.6 Million I beleive. The idea is to pay for it with

A. Money from the Federal Government
B. Money from the Provincial Government
C. Money from the Regional District
D. Money from the sale of the Playhouse
Theatre property. Approx $4 Million.
E. Money from local business and contributions, and last but not least
F. Money from the taxpayers of Prince George.

Now at this point who knows how much money you will get from the various levels of Government. One thing we do know is a tax dollar is a tax dollar is a tax dollar.

Lets assume that at the end of the day we receive 60% from other levels of Government etc; that would leave the city with approx $18 Million for their share. Add to that another $8 million for borrowing costs over 20 years, and you are looking at roughly $26 Million from tax payers of Prince George. In addition we will be saddled with approx $300,000.00 per year for maintenance costs.

The City of Nanaimo completed their PAC (Port Theatre) which had 800 seats plus other ammenities in 1998. Total cost $13.1 Million, of which over 50% was paid for by other levels of Government, plus business, and contributions.

The population of Nanaimo and surrounding area is 130,000 opposed to 96,000 in Prince George. The City of Nanaimo has a population of 96,000 compared to Pr Geo of 71,000. So the obvious question is;;

Why are we paying so much money for this facility??? In fact we are paying three times what Nanaimo paid. Maybe our facility will be a little biggar and better, but does it have to be???

Once again we are suffering from an acute case of **big shotism**

Once again we have the city administration driving this issue as if no concern for the election side show taking place.

IMO first order of a new fiscally responsible city council should be to find a new city manager.

red2b wrote: "What other town or city in Canada with a population of 75 to 80 thousand has spent over 40 million on a PAC or similar?"

Quite a number actually. Of course, one has to look at comparing apples to apples. Most of the numbers you see are contruction costs, not project costs.

So, the construction cost for the local PAC is under $30 million. Then, of course, there are many who built theates, etc. some years ago, so one has to look at that.

In addiion, one has to kleep in mind that when some of the older ones were built, the cities were typically smaller in population.

So, please try to keep that in mind. I know, it is a bit of a stretch to actually think that people on here would do that ... LOL

So, here are a few just to wet your appetite

----------------------------

Orillia - population 30.000
Orillia Opera House - 705 seats – municipal owned, built in 1917 (after first one burned) for about $35,000 (much less expensive than similar sized facilities built in the last 50 years I suppose.

The Opera House, known for its fine acoustics has featured such artists as the Marxx Brothers, Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, KD Lang, Mickey Rooney and hometown boy, Gordon Lightfoot

[url]//www.orilliaoperahouse.ca/index.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snuffy/1055314253[/url]

Medicine Hat – 57,000 – Esplanade – theatre, art gallery, museum all under one roof – built 2005

http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id24825

Lethbridge – 75,000
Yates centre, built 1966 – 500 seats plus 180 seats. (keep in mind that the population in 1966 was around 24,000) A donation of $200,000 was given at the time from Yates, a retailer. In today’s terms? $10+ million? Who has that sort of money in PG?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/agent_86/1316307157/sizes/l/in/photostream
BTW, Lethbridge was the home of the 1975 Canada Games for which they built their 6,500 seat arena.

It was also designated a Cultural Capital of Canada for the 2004–2005 season

A few others to look at

Chatham – 60,000 Chatham cultural Centre – 700 seats – city owned

North Bay -55,000 – Capitol Theatre – 1005 seats – Theatre Arts Community Centre

Peterborough – 75,000 – Showplace Peterborough – 642 – self owned

There are quite a few being built recently and I have posted those on here before.

Time to move on. The conversation, as Ms Green would say, has been had on here. It is not likely to progress any further.

http://www.orilliaoperahouse.ca/index.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snuffy/1055314253

Another one to add to the list...

The Lester Centre of the Arts in Prince Rupert. A modern 700 seat theatre built in 1987. A good chunk of the funds to build it came from the fishermen.

http://www.lestercentre.ca

Why did we even build the PG Playhouse?

Long story. Started back in the early 1960's if not earlier. The construction sarted in 1964.

PG Headline on October 20, 1965 read "Little Theatre nears Completion".

The Theatre was officially opened November 27, 1971.

The playhouse, in its original form, was almost completely built by volunteers and donations, btw. Can't say that for most of the sports/recreation facilities other than Otway trails (and that group does a great job).